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Which Sails For You:

The three different Thistle models of North Sails
Greg Fisher

Presently North Sails One Design is offering three distinctly different models of Thistle sails. Jack Christianson of North Sails Seattle has developed the Northwest cut. Ched Proctor of North Sails One Design East in Connecticut, developed his own "“Ched” cut, while my design, the “Greg” cut has been developed out of North Sails One Design Central in Ohio. I’ve been asked to describe the three designs and their characteristics. By no means is this article meant to be an advertisement for North Sails…just to provide some info!

To say one design is faster than another is simply not fair nor true…all three have won at least 2 major championships in the class this past several years- either MWW, MWE or Nationals. No dogs in the bunch! I thought the easiest distinction between the sails would be the setup in sailing them. The fact that the sails are designed different and are built, in some cases, from different cloth would require different approaches. Therefore, I contacted some of the hotest sailors in the class for some input. Terry Lettenmaier in Seattle, sails the Northwest sails and has won the ’99 and ’00 MWW. Bryce Dryden from Atlanta, won the ’98 and’99 Nationals with the Greg designs, Mike Ingham from Rochester, National Champ ’97 and ’00 offered a unique perspective having sailed both Greg and Ched designs and presently races with a Greg main and a Ched jib. Finally, Tom Hubbell from Delaware, Oh, races with the Ched designs. He is the mastermind behind Coach TCA and has won the Atlantic Coasts’s and been consistently at the top in most class championships. These guys all provided some valuable insights.

I think it would be tricky to launch into a technical discussion about draft placement (where the sail is deepest), the shape of the entries and exits, etc., as I think that could be quite lengthy and perhaps confuse the issue. Truly what means most, in my opinion, is how you sail them! However, I have, in order to fill the pages a bit, provided pictures of all three mains from under the boom. One of your first reactions may be “Wow, they really don’t look all that different!” Keep in mind that “under the boom” comparisons are only worthwhile if the shots were taken with the same sheet tension in the same breeze with the same mast tune and with the sails at same age (used sails will appear quite different from brand new of the same design)…. Even for us sailmakers this process can be lengthy and involve a bunch of film to get the right shots! The sails need to be “striped” (placing draft stripes at the quarters in the sails for true comparisons) and then careful timing in the taking of the pictures to get accurate numbers to measure from.

Let’s first outline how the sails are similar. All sails are built by our production facility in San Diego- North Sails One Design West. These guys build only one design sails, and in the case of the Thistle, all designs are produced, inventoried and shipped in similar fashion. There are descriptions of all three sails on our web, as well as tuning guides for all three. The NW guide is separate and the Greg/Ched guide is combined. All three are pretty much up to date and are available at www.northsailsod.com. All sails use the same style and size finish details. Grommets, windows and the window material, boltropes and even the reinforcement styles and sizes are very similar. Actually the reinforecments represent the latest thoughts in load carrying shapes as stolen from America’s Cup technology…so there is a bit of trickle down! However, there are some definate differences in “look” which can help distinguish the sails when racing against them.

The Northwest and the Ched jibs have single windows as opposed to the Greg jib that has two windows. Both the Ched/Northwest jibs are built from the same fabric distinguishable by its thicker “square pattern”in its weave. The 2001 Greg jib is built from a lighter fabric with a much fainter, wider square pattern. Pre-2001, Greg’s jib was built from fabric that sported a smaller, prominent square pattern (but the same in weight). Finally Ched’s jib has narrower panels and more seams than the Northwest jib. Shape-wise, the Northwest jib is the flatest of the three with a much flatter entry (leading edge). Greg’s and Ched’s are similar in the front full) with Ched’s jib being just slightly fuller aft.

The Northwest mainsail has one solid window placed nearly parallel to the boom. Both the Greg and Ched (pre-2001) mains, have a diagonal split window. On Greg’s main the back half is slid up about 10” higher than the front half (for the helmsman, since in my case, I’ve ben told, he never hikes!) All three mains, of course, have similar spreader windows. The Greg main has a radial head, where the panels radiate from the head into the sail about 4 feet down. The Greg (2001) and Northwest mains are made from a firm crispy fabric that has a larger faint square pattern, while Ched’s pre-2001 mains had no square pattern and were made from a heavier fabric. Just to keep it interesting Greg’s pre-2001 mains were built from a firm crispy lighter fabric (same weight as 2001 mains) but with a much smaller prominent square pattern. Ched’s 2001 mains are now made from a softer, heavier fabric (very similar to his past fabric) with a larger, faint square pattern. Got all that? There will be a test! Wanna cheat? Under our logo near the tack, the computor has inscribed NW, PM( Proctor) or FM( Fisher)!

Before we get into sailing styles a “disclaimer” on designs... Certainly, there is the “word on the street” about which model sail is the slickest in lightwinds and chop…or which one is the rocket in flat water and big breeze, etc. When Ched, Jack or I design a sail, we are all looking to design the best all-around sail, or even more to the point, the best compromise for all conditions. I must say “compromise”, as it is impossible to design the “perfect” sail that will be the absolute fastest in all conditions. It is always a challenge to hit the compromise close so that the sail will perform “well enough” in light, medium, heavy winds and all between. Each of us may choose our own compromise spot a bit differently, so our various sails may indeed perform different as well. Perhaps more important, the best trim and set up may not be similar at all. That we feel, is a huge advantage in offering the three designs- there are three distinct “styles” of sailing offered by each.

Having said there are 3 distinct styles offered by the 3 designs, I found it interesting when talking with the hottest sailors in the class how they each may “tweak” and trim the same design of sail a bit differently…. But, they get to the weather mark the same time! I think it just goes to show that there’s more than one way to achieve a balanced helm, a flat boat, etc. Fortunately they all pretty closely follow our tuning guides (or in some cases helped write them!) except as noted. I’ve just tried to pick up, again, the basic sailing style differences.

Terry Lettenmaier sails in lighter winds (with the Northwest cut) with the Cunningham well eased the jib halyard loose enough that there are scallops in the luff and the outhaul eased so there is a full shelf of almost 6”. The traveller is centered and the upper batten parallel to the boom. He eases the sheet to accelerate and trims hard when the boat is at speed and can burn a little for extra pointing. He doesn’t like pulling the traveller to windward to light stuff as it makes things more complicated boat handling wise. The higherst he steers is with the windward telltale just barely fluttering.

In overpowering breeze and flat water, the only change is to ease the traveller to leeward to balance the helm…no break in the luff of the jib. More pointing ability comes from harder trim on the mainsheet, Terry says. When the breeze builds a bit more and the chop rolls in, more jib halyard and outhaul is applied and some vang. In the Sayville type conditions- big breeze, big chop- the traveller comes almost back closer to the center, a pile of vang is used and the mainsheet played a bunch (remember that thread!). He likes in those conditions, to sail with a lot of twist in the main. Terry did mention that Dane Winchester, sailing 50 lbs heavier with the same sails, used the tight mainsheet and traveller down approach…

In Sayville, Bryce Dryden was a proponet of vang sheeting with the Greg designs. The traveler was only eased to leeward 6-10”in the biggest breeze and used as a rough tune. A great deal of vang was applied and the mainsheet was played “constantly”. But Bryce’s comment was “I would think you’d do that with any sail in any boat? The helm has to stay neutral”. The outhaul was very tight. He mentioned that he had quite evident overbend wrinkles in the lower section of the main in most conditions, but for sure in the breeze. (Note: in looking at pictures of all three designs I feel this should almost be a trimming guide indicating proper bend). He sailed with the jib luff breaking sometimes 8” (or more) in the biggest puffs. He also eased the sheet so that the leech was almost 3” off the spreader to help open the slot. Higher pointing would be achieved with more main trim and more jib luff break.

In light winds, Bryce too, would leave the traveller centered but ease the main sheet (no vang). He emphasized the importance of keeping the boat rolling in these conditions. In lighter breeze, and especially in chop, Bryce described how he then sailed in the lower side of the steering groove with the jib luff nearly filled and the windward telltale only occasionally fluttering. Still, in these conditins, the outhaul stayed tight enough that the shelf was only open 2” in the middle. He indicated he truly lived “by the guide”.

Many of Mike Ingham’s tuning numbers are the basis for the tuning guide for the Greg main, so he, too lives by them! Mike, in lighter winds, pulls the traveller to windward (top of the hole) and then sails with the mainsheet well eased (with the Greg main). He eases the jib as well. He said that as the wind picks up and the traveller is centered (where it lives most of the time thereafter) he again plays the main constantly. He thought it was hard to pinpoint a sweet spot for the sheet position because he works it so much- always in an attempt to keep the boat balanced. In the big breeze at Sayville Mike, too sailed with “a ton of vang” and no adjustment to the traveller (centered). I had the opportunity to sail with Mike for an hour or so at Sayville in the breeze before the practice race and I learned a lot. First, for Mike, except in light winds, the traveller could just as easily been removed. Second, the vang was set hard. Hard is relative of course, but Mike had it tight enough that not only did the boom basically just move out sideways when the sheet was eased, but the boom had a good 4-6” of bend in it (obviously not enough to break it!). The upper batten was open (twisted out in relation to the boom) and the helm totally balanced. And, of course, the sheet was never cleated…I’m sure Bryce sets his vang and sheet similar.

Mike also had a unique perspective on the Ched/Greg comparison as he now has sailed both mains. He looks at Ched’s main more as a trim the main hard, ease the traveller kind of sail. He felt the sheet was trimmed harder than with the Greg main to attain a similar “feel”. In breeze, little vang was ever used, but the traveller was eased well to leeward to keep the helm balanced. Ched, himself, concurred that he rarely uses the vang upwind.

Correspondingly, in light stuff the traveller was not pulled to weather (because Mike felt the leech was slightly more open on the Ched main). He pointed out the differences in the tuning guide of the looser diamonds for the Greg main and the tighter diamonds for the Ched main. Because the leech lengths are slightly different on the two mains, the rake settings are different as well.

Interestingly enough, while Mike sails the Greg main, he sails the Ched jib. When asked why that choice, he said it has worked for him and he has no reason to change. The moral of the story here is that it is possible to mix and match.

Tom Hubbell ‘s initial comment was; “ Perhaps Ched’s design fits well with my perverted tendency to pull the sheets in too much”. He stated that as soon as there is breeze to lift the boom the mainsheet is trimmed to a point where we have a straight leech. “We’re talking about sailing in second to third gear with the upper batten hookd to windward…. If we have good speed and are aching for more height, we’ll trim even tighter” At this point, of course, Tom would be sailing with the jib luff actually breaking. In normal sailing, the weather telltale would be fluttering with an occasional break in the luff. In three people on the rail breeze, Tom pulls the sheet tight enough to develop the overbend wrinkls as described before. He likes that guide because it tells him his sheet tension is right and his mastbend is on target.

In really light stuff, though, and if he is not doing a bunch of tacking, Tom does opt to pull the traveller to windward. The sheet is eased way out for power/acceleration.

In the big blows, Tom lays into the vang a bit, but not to the point of closing the leech up top. The traveller is set ½ way down and the sheet well eased and of course, constantly played. The jib sheet is eased and the leads moved back a couple of inches when it’s really thumping. Ched says; “That’s one way to do it, though I normally just ease the sheet, or at most, move the lead to leeward a bit.”

Hmmm…what’d we learn here? Balanced helm, constant sheet adjustment? Mike said it best and I think it came out in Terry, Bryce and Tom’s discussions too. He said that his Tornado coach during his Olympic Campaign constantly reminded his team;”Don’t forget the big lines!”

Should we mention spinnakers? We do offer two designs built from two different cloths. The Superlite Crosscut is a true all-around shape originally developed by Ched. It reaches very well and does the job downwind. Presently it’s been built from .75oz polyester which, when it’s said and done, is slightly lighter than its nylon counterpart.

The RC-4 radial clew .75 oz nylon spinnaker is my design. It is slanted more at broadreaching and running but will do the job reaching as well.

I hope that this information will help and not confuse. Obviously, none of this is “black and white” as to which is the right sail for you and where. Frankly, often my suggestion is to look at what is most popular in your area and either go with those so you can learn through observation or, go with the contrary hoping for an edge!

Good luck and good sailing! Please feel free to contact any of us if you have any questions.

For more information on Thistle sails, contact the North Thistle experts.